Shat terd

Message 351 of 367

Introduction

ken_forthelamb
(55/M/Indiana)

10/19/01 5:27 am

I joined a few days ago and have been observing. It is good to see that most here do not appear to place all the blame on the other side. That happens too often and it resolves nothing.

My name is ken...as if you could not guess. I have not been abused in my marriage but as a child. Perhaps it will be easier to post a link to ken's story

http://www.shatterdmen.com/Ken's%20Story.htm

I am the founder of another club on domestic violence and abuse which approaches it from a side most know little about..abused men. We do work with both sides. and 1/3 of our members are women, some of whom have been abused. Some of our founders were abused women. Atlhough we do approch this from both sides, I will admit that we address it from the men's side more often for men have very few places to go. Although they make up half the "victims" few know they even exist. Our govenment has even falsified facts regarding this issue. I have know of a few women's shelters that say they will help men..well if they do, it is a well guarded secret for there is no ads stating they do although I have seen many encouraging women to seek help from these same sources. That could be because the Violence Against Women Act gives funding for this but not one dime to help abused men or their children in any way shape or manor. In fact, in reality, it encourages legal abuse of men as one yahoo group brags about.

This being said, I do want to work with all to promote a safe home for all. What is abusive if done to one gender, should be seen as abusive if done to the other too. Seldom have I seen a conflict between two adults that both did not add to it. Seldom is there a 100% innocent person.

Our group approches this issue from a Biblical basis and the psalmist prayed search ME oh Lord...not search my husband...search my wife.

These first posts are the hardest...grin...but I do trust we can have a constructive relationship as we work toward a common goal...to value ALL our people.

ken
founder Shatterd Men

http://www.shatterdmen.com/index.html

Message 352 of 367

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Re: Introduction

women_xxx_women_xxx_women

10/19/01 7:46 am

To begin with I believe domestic violence differs from child abuse, in that the perpertrator is obsessed, and even after distancing yourself from him he will continue to harass you and try to continue to damage and contol your life; even after years of separation and divorce.

As posted previously:

Abusive men are getting smarter, and are finding legal ways to make the wives "pay", both emotionally and financially. Since there are more women being abused than men, it seemed the courts were doing the best they could. Which as you know is not good enough. At one point I gather the abusive man found another way to retaliate, by trying to use the law against their wives. It would now be difficult to differentiate the abused man from the abusive man, since with certain support groups for men, sometimes led by an abusive man himself (my abusive ex-husband leading one of these groups), they describe themselves as victims. Not victims of genetics, or of witnessing abuse with their own parents. But rather a victim due to their wives behaviour - they have reversed the roles and will try to leave the women homeless, childless, and penniless. And any action the woman takes to defend herself or her children, will be backed up full force through the groups activities, or groups/his power- in otherwords more threats, more power, and more mental and psychological abuse. The woman, again, "put in her place".

These same men groups were trying to pass a petition/law that if the women could not prove what they were saying that they should be penalized. Imagine now a woman who is truly being abused, she will not go to the authorities, she probably would not leave, in my case I probably would have stayed, and perhaps one day been killed in one of his "impulsive" moments.

I believe this is an issue not only for women, but anyone that is abused...child, woman, or man

This Is a Reply to: Msg 351 by ken_forthelamb

Message 353 of 367

Re: Introduction

ken_forthelamb
(55/M/Indiana)

10/19/01 8:16 am

It would appear that this club does NOT address both sides. You state: "even after distancing yourself from him " All your references are to the man as the abuser. UNBIASED reseach, NOT womens shelters, state it is equal.

REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

Martin S. Fiebert
Department of Psychology
California State University, Long Beach

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 122 scholarly investigations, 99 empirical studies and 23 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 77,000.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Abused women is a multibillion dollar industry. I would accept facts from a source that does not get paid regardless of their findings faster then from one that gets paid based on their findings.

Many areas arrest the man in any domestic violence call regardless of what happened Is this fair>

A full 20 % of the "rapist" in prison have been PROVEN to have been innocent by DNA. Many of these were accused by a vindictive woman. NOTHING happends to her...even though a man was in prison for years before it was proven he was innocent.

Is this fair?

This is the introduction to a real Yahoo group:

Now they are even bragging about it!

Group Info
Members: 172
Founded: Sep 4, 2000
Language: English
Category: Divorce

Description Category: Divorce A serious and supportive discussion forum for divorced or legally separated women to discuss how they have used divorce, child support, alimony and the courts to make their ex-husbands their financial slaves. Also how ex-wives have used the psychology of divorce to turn their ex-husbands into servants and slaves for their own amusement and enrichment. A forum for women to share their success stories in humiliating and bankrupting ex-husbands--and then moving on, with their ex's money, to better relationships with more attractive men. Humiliation. Revenge. Female power. Female financial domination. No doubt about it: For many women, divorce can be the road to the easy life--and wealth and riches. And the beauty of it all is that it's all done at the expense of your ex, who now is your financial slave. This list is about placing your ex in psychological and financial bondage. Discuss the tactics--and laugh about it--here.

Link not given to avoid advertising them

This does show that not only are men being abused LEGALLY, but women are encouraging each other to do it.

The Violence Againt WOMEN Act rewards women to be abused and assures them of getting everything a man has by only accusing him of domestic violence. Is this fair?

If you are really trying to stop domestic violence...why not write to congress and tell them you want a GENDER NEUTRAL domestic violence act? Why not approach it from BOTH sides...why not value BOTH GENDERS?

This Is a Reply to: Msg 352 by women_xxx_women_xxx_women

Message 354 of 367

Re: Introduction

women_xxx_women_xxx_women

10/19/01 12:18 pm

From your(?) shattered men website: "Most of the training in domestic violence is provided by feminist sources, often from women's shelters. Many areas now have women's advocates going on all domestic calls. Few if any have a men's advocate. As a result, it is more likely to see abuse where none exists. Also since these "experts" are training the police, the police tend to believe their training."

My reply would be:

Please have your club sign the following petition in firm support of children, women, and mens rights in relation to domestic violence. If you can, it would be appreciated if you could add it to the weekly chat email you send out, so all members can view and sign this petition.

PLEASE COPY AND SEND TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW
Please do not forward this e-mail, but rather copy & paste the text.

"Lie Detector Tests for Domestic Violence Custody Battles"

To: Whom It May Concern

For children, women, and men survivors of domestic violence: I would ask that all governments pass a law for the protection of adult and children survivors of abuse.

Please find the culprit of the abuse, then pass judgement accordingly. How? Use lie detector tests, 2 out of 3, those who decide not to take the tests lose custody automatically and get supervised access to the children.

This will enable the children to have continued contact with the abusive parent. But will enable the abused parent to make the decision for their children's welfare.

This will enable some stability within the home...avoiding continued confrontation in courts, and avoiding awarding of custody to the abuser through false witnesses, or temporary changes with good behavior, or simply the good parent losing custody due to having a bad lawyer, not enough monetary resources or simply due to other errors.

This will protect the parent and the children from continued abuse. And will make for a better society in our and our children's future.

Please sign this petition, and ask for a global change: to use lie detector tests in family court when fighting for custody.

If 100 people have signed this message before you, please send this e-mail to the White House at president@whitehouse.gov to show Mr. Bush your support. Then start a fresh copy of this message with your name as the first signer. Thank you.

1-Your Name, City, Country
2-Your Name, City, Country
3-Your Name, City, Country

If you are the 101th person signing please e-mail the above list of names to president@whitehouse.gov

This Is a Reply to: Msg 353 by ken_forthelamb

Message 358 of 367

Re: Introduction

okitty_kat
(24/F/Williston, ND)

10/20/01 6:14 pm

I am sorry Ken I have looked at the sight on multiple occasions and it does nto taek it from both side yet from the mans.

Let me say this sure I do beleive a heap load of woman may have lied about abuse for a sick revenge tatic, but I know personally with myself that a woman jsut can not stand up in court and say hey I have been abused and be granted whatever she wants, she has to prove or give some sort of proof of the abuse.

I also know there are a heap load of men who have abused who will deny it to their dying day always saying it was a vindictive ex or so forth.

Of course this is speaking of adult not children, children are jsut that children regardless of sex.

How many memebers do you think are caliming abuse that never were along with how many woman.

And why do you think that the father shoudl gain custody because I can say this much I have never denied visitations or contact with the father of my kids I have just requested that meansures to be taken to ensure their saftey. Wheras when he has then he completely limits the contact between me and the kids as a vindictive manner.

I think the first step in order to look at it from both sides is to stop saying abused man or abused woman, we are all just abused people and it does nto matter on our sex if we are abused or not.

I am so sick of one side blaming the others, my husband was ans still is extremembly abusive althouth he would galdly join your club and say that he was never abusive and that I am being vinditive.

Most cases of false calims except ofr sexual are ussually not prosecuted because there has to be proof in order to do so. I know how it is in my case.

I feel completely bashed by your club and your veiws feeling like it is wrong for me to be admitting the abuse. Yes woman have abused men and men have abused woman and woman on woman and man on man, abuse coems and endures on all sexes and I am not ashamed any longer that he did this to me because it is his problem not mine,

In one of your previous statments you said that very few situations is 100% of one persons fault and then in this last post you say that a woman man divorce and take the kids away when the man has doen no wrong, by the two different statements it appears to me that you are saying that no man is ever 100% at fault but a woman can be....

Hmm in that case my husband that I am still married to abused me and my kdis, I left the house the new g/f is not due with his baby in JAN and both of my kids ages 3 and 6 have PICA and PTSD with failure to thrive, tell me now how is all this my fault but not 100% his. I know mine I layed down with him, I trusted and loved him unconditionally and I beleived God would reach in side of him and change his ways, boy look at my kids now on Zoloft with my oldest literally eating her own hands, and because of no straight out proof, hard evidience proof by authorities my kdis will tiem and tiem again go back to get abused by him again during visitations.

Yea but this is part my fault, I got enough guilt from him I do nto need it from another club or a complete stranger, thanks but no thanks.

Sorry caught me on a bad day and not in the mood to hear how everything that happens is part the womans fault espessially when many jsut love the man.

It does go both ways, I wish the blame from your club was nto just pinned on the woman!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 356 by ken_forthelamb

Message 359 of 367

Re: Introduction

ken_forthelamb
(55/M/Indiana)

10/20/01 9:00 pm

Women are Hurting Too

Bridge's Story

BECKA'S STORY

Elise's Story

Patti's Story Jocelyn's Story

Cheryl's Story Jen's Story

Brenda's Story

Divorce or Lose Children

(please submit your story to be included here)

http://www.shatterdmen.com/TESTIMONIES.htm

This Is a Reply to: Msg 358 by okitty_kat

Message 360 of 368

Re: Introduction

delivered_sis

10/20/01 9:21 pm

you know at first when i looked at Shattered Men ....i didnt think i liked it.....the whole problem was ...that i didnt understand what the ministry was doing..
one question...have you ever talked to ken..or to any of the many people..(women included) that he has ministered to?
maybe if you would take the time to get to know him and understand his heart you would understand ken and his ministry better...
you see im a woman that was verbally, sexually, and physically abused by many "men".
if what you percieve ken to be doing.....(being anti women) were correct....then i woould imagine he would have immideately "thrown me out with the other garbage"....
but you see that is just not true..
Ken has been nothing but supportive to me and to my situation.....even to the point of spending hours with me online talking to me and prayng with me....one night he and elise talked to me for hours...i was trying desperately that night to end my lfe... ken kept me online while elise called 911...a call that literally saved my life...
does this sound like a woman basher to you?....
it doesnt to me...it sounds like a kind gentle man ...one that listens to God and one who will do all he can to help any hurting person... whether they are "man" or "woman"..
please take the time to get to know ken..
then maybe you will be able to understand.

God is good!
<bridge><

This Is a Reply to: Msg 359 by ken_forthelamb

Message 362 of 368

Re: Introduction

okitty_kat
(24/F/Williston, ND)

10/20/01 11:53 pm

I will be replying to no more of such messages, I am not saying he is anti woman I just personally not fidn it the place for me, and it may be the right place for soem and nto a good place for others, it all depends on the person and the point where they are in their lives.

At any rate I am apart of this club for discussions of domestic abuse and I am very much a christian and I am here to talk to others who have been through similar situations as mine or nto such simislar sictuation, not depending on their sex, I am not here to critic other clubs and to fidn other clubs to join. I have already found enough support in the clubs that I am already apart of and from the people who are physically in my life along with God.

What I am saying is that this is becoming some sort of a debate and nto with just me on the veiws of this other club and that I am sure was not the purpose of this club.

Sp Ken I wish you the best of luck and I wish your club is able to support many I wish no longer to discuss it or go rounds about it, I am here for suprt for myself and support for others.

Good day and GOd Bless!

Again this club is nto here to critic other clubs so I will no longer participate in further discussion along this topic.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 360 by delivered_sis

Message 363 of 368

Re: Introduction

ken_forthelamb
(55/M/Indiana)

10/21/01 2:01 am

Lori, we (as in the founders which includes 2 women out of 5 founders) realize some women may not have felt comfortable. For that reason we started "Shattterd Lives" which uses this for an introduction:

Shatterd Men, the parent club for Shatterd Lives states in this section, that as many men are abused as are women. This means we can also say as many women are abused as men. . While Shatterd Men reaches out to ALL those suffering from abuse, it does focus on men. Shatterd Lives hopes to reach out to ALL abused people from a gender neutral point of view. Needless to say, it will be from a Biblical view point. Please join us as we focus not on men, not on women, but on JESUS CHRIST to accept healing from all forms of abuse. HE Cares for YOU and so do WE Serving our Lord in partnership with the God's Rest Prayer Room Clubs. for the LAMB that LOVE may abound.

Oddly enough, this club is not very active. In the last month, all the posts have been mine, trying to encourage activity. It has worked to some extent however for where as out of 600 members in SM, 1/3 are women, out of 32 members of SL, 2/3's are women. Oddly enough,most of them members in SL are also in SM.

The picture on your profile shows the need for SM to stay focused as it is. MOST ALL resources for abused people are directed to help women. Many do not even admit there are abused men. I have polled literally dozens of them. Most will not even answer. EVERY public service announment I have ever seen is aimmed as men as the abusers. NONE show men as the victim. This is why SM has the focus it does and we tell people right up front about this. MOST of my posts point out that there are TWO sides and I often point out the paalmist prayer (ps 139:23,24) is search ME or Lord...NOT search my husband...search my wife.

I am by no means trying to pull anyone away from THIS club. There is room for both easily. However as the founders here may well know, this is a difficult club and we all need to remember as much horror as we see ...MOST famlies are NOT abusive...but when they are..we do need to address BOTH sides and find the ROOT cause..it is not always the one we see on the surface.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 362 by okitty_kat

Message 364 of 368

Re: Introduction

vlagwmmbr

10/21/01 2:59 am

Ken: As a founder of this club, I would ask that
you do not refer to your site anymore, since it does not reflect this club's interest.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 363 by ken_forthelamb

Message 365 of 368

Re: Introduction

rainbowdove51156
(45/F/somewhere over God's rain)

10/21/01 3:56 am

kEN,SHE SAID,"NO MORE" and what you are doing now is another form of abuse.Give her some space bro.At the moment you are like a dog with a bone,not willing to let it go. rainbowdove

This Is a Reply to: Msg 363 by ken_forthelamb

Message 366 of 368

Re: Introduction

ken_forthelamb
(55/M/Indiana)

10/21/01 4:08 am

Re: Introduction vlagwmmbr
10/21/01 2:59 am
Ken: As a founder of this club, I would ask that
you do not refer to your site anymore, since it does not reflect this club's interest.

By: rainbowdove51156
Date: 10/21/01 3:56 am

Ummm, have you seen anymore in this time?

I have left links to THIS club in a club that has over 6,000 members which seems would be good for you..HOT LINKS I have looked back and there are NO LINKS to our CLUBs but the links other then the first one were REPLIES to others some to storys from THE ONLY ABUSED PEOPLE reconized HERE..WOMEN!!!!! DOUBLE STANDARDS?

I have checked profiles...and it appears that this is right on the money. Again if a man is beaten often enough, he WILL strick back THIS is when many women are seriously hurt.

Do not bother to deleat me..I am leaving as THIS club is NOT interested in BOTH sides...for MEN have NO VALUE HERE!

This Is a Reply to: Msg 365 by rainbowdove51156

Message 367 of 368

Not sorry to see him go..

rainbowdove51156
(45/F/somewhere over God's rain)

10/21/01 8:14 am

I know I have not posted anything before today but I just want to say this about ken, I have had dealings with him in the past and believe me,he is a very verbully abusive man. Just be glad he left. rainbowdove. Jesus is Lord.

Re: Not sorry to see him go..

vlagwmmbr

10/21/01 10:11 am

Thank you for your support RainbowDove. I would like it to be clear that this club is also open to men or anyone that may need support. The focus of this club is to help and support women and men that are suffering or that have questions that can be guided or answered by some of the members here. Pointing the finger serves no purpose here, other than to infuriate those who have suffered violence. I prefer to not begin a debate on which sex is wrong, but rather we all know that violence is wrong, be it from a woman or man.

It seems unclear to me, how Ken can have us follow a spiritual journey, when he is still debating who is right and who is wrong. His website clearly does not reflect the spiritual journey he wishes to take us on : "I often point out the palmist prayer (ps 139:23,24) is search ME or Lord...NOT search my husband...search my wife."

And "he is a very verbully abusive man", only confirms what I was feeling - there are issues Ken still needs to work on.

Once again, thank you for your support.

This Is a Reply to: Msg 367 by rainbowdove51156

Message 20778 of 20893